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Poster: BVD Date: Oct 3, 2010 10:23pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

I think 5/3/72 is my favorite. From Paris. I believe it's on E72

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Poster: BVD Date: Oct 4, 2010 7:13am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Wiseguy ey ??? LOA

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Oct 4, 2010 12:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Did they play a China/Rider that was less than stellar on that continent in 1972?

The 5/3/72 performance of C/R was in all likelyhood the prettiest of the tour. You certainly can't fault them for selecting that version for the album. The entire 5/3 Olympia Hall show is, in my opinion, the most asthetically beautiful performance of the tour.

Still, I prefer the China> Rider from 5/16/72. Perhaps it was the extraordinary high-wattage surging through the transmitter at Radio Luxembourg, but that performance just crackles with an energy/vibe unique to that performance; reflected in the China/Rider segue (and also on The Other One), very well played by Weir!

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Poster: duckpond74 Date: Oct 4, 2010 10:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

"The entire 5/3 Olympia Hall show is, in my opinion, the most asthetically beautiful performance of the tour." I couldn't agree more . . . I've heard it said that Phil invited Darius Milhaud and Olivier Messiaen to these two Paris shows. When told that they were in the house, Phil told the band before they went on that they had to play "really well and really 'pretty'" . . . be it truth or rumour, this little legend has long given these shows an added mystique.

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Oct 4, 2010 7:58am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Ummm, what does LOA mean? I'm not very knowledgeable, web-slang-wise, so I googled it. Google wanted to know if I meant LOA in Hawaiian or LOA in pregnancy ... also, it's apparently a voodoo spirit. Should we be worried?

(BVD, after all, means Bene Volens Diabolus ... Best Wishes from the Devil ... I should point out that this isn't my interpretation; it's from the noted expert Edward Eager, in his excellent tome, Knight's Castle. You can google it :-) )

This post was modified by AltheaRose on 2010-10-04 14:58:54

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Poster: Diamondhead Date: Oct 4, 2010 9:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

So that's why they call undershorts BVDs?

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Oct 4, 2010 9:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Yes. This is discovered, I believe, by Sir Hugo DeLacy, when the time-traveling young hero goes back to the days of Ivanhoe in his PJs. This was a very influential book on me in 5th grade.

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Poster: Diamondhead Date: Oct 4, 2010 12:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

OMG - I'm teetering on the edge of incredulousness.

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Oct 4, 2010 8:40pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

I can push you over, if you like, by discussing a more recent literary choice among the new generation: Captain Underpants.

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Poster: Diamondhead Date: Oct 6, 2010 9:54am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Who? Am I that divorced from current reality? OTOH, I do know that the latest kid food rage to sweep the country is spaghetti tacos. I look at that as another indicator of the failure of the Boomers. Why couldn't we have thought of that. Duh!

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Poster: BVD Date: Oct 4, 2010 10:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Yes I am not web-slang savy at all. I replied to your message before coffee. I meant to put LOL. ha ha. Thanks for clearing up LOA. No worries!

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Oct 4, 2010 9:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Never do anything before coffee. That's a very important rule. Otherwise, you open the door for the Loas.

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Oct 3, 2010 10:45pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Yeah, that's a great one. But it was really done by NRPS :-)

Actually, and I'm sure this must be common knowledge to other folks here, but didn't they do a bunch of -- what's it called? overdubbing? multiple layers of tracks? -- on E 72? If so, would 5/3/72 be the one on E 72, or would it be combined with some others?

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Oct 4, 2010 5:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

I believe the overdubbing done on the Europe '72 album was mostly just "cleaning up" the vocal tracks and was done in the studio. As opposed to adding instrumental tracks from multiple performances vis a vis Anthem of the Sun.

And while the China> Rider performed on 5/3/72 is certainly beautiful (the entire Paris show is extraordinary). The China> Rider performed in Luxembourg on 5/16/72 is even better. The segue being more intense...

http://www.archive.org/details/gd72-05-16.sbd.unknown.10353.sbeok.shnf



This post was modified by Cliff Hucker on 2010-10-04 12:57:23

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Oct 4, 2010 6:14am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Hmmm. What is meant by "cleaning up" a vocal track? Wouldn't overdubbing imply taking another track and putting it on top (or is that how it would be "cleaned up" -- e.g., exchanged with another one)?

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Oct 4, 2010 6:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Now this is above my pay-grade. But I am sure Charlie or one of the folks here more knowledgeable about this will chime in to clarify...

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Poster: Skobud Date: Oct 4, 2010 8:31am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Im pretty sure when they clean up or remaster they are looking at the waveform of the signal and removing certain frequencies that are responsible for static or hiss or even low level feedback...Again, like Dennis said, Charlie could answer this better.

I do know that some serious overdubbing went on during Workingman's...Just listen to UJB, that was tracked over a few times to get that harmony to sound that way...They borrowed that from Crosby and CSN, who were notorious for tracking their vocal harmonies over and over until they got it just the way they wanted it to sound. Jackson talks about that breifly in Garcia: American life.

This post was modified by Skobud on 2010-10-04 15:31:42

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Poster: Diamondhead Date: Oct 4, 2010 9:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

I always thought that they redid the vocals. That's not cleaning. that's renovation. At least they didn't use auto-tune.

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Poster: duckpond74 Date: Oct 4, 2010 3:19pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

You are correct sir - cleaning up the vocals means re-recording them in the studio and adding effects to simulate a similar ambient background to match the original recording. Then replacing those vocal tracks on the 16 track masters (or safety masters) to be mixed down to stereo.

From what I remember reading, back in the day, the Europe 72 vocals were actually re-recorded to give the album a more 'polished' sound.

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Oct 4, 2010 8:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Well, that explanation makes sense. (Though just about any explanation would probably make sense to me, LOL.)

I tend to think E 72 might be the best "intro album" among the official (pre-DP etc) releases. I always liked it better than AB or WD. But I haven't actually heard it in years. It's interesting that, for all the work put into polishing it (and other albums), the raw, live, warts-and-all sound seems to be what draws and keeps people in the end ... Guess no one would have imagined that in the 70s.

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Poster: duckpond74 Date: Oct 4, 2010 9:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Hi AR, still enjoying Nepal - warts and all?

"Guess no one would have imagined that in the 70s" - might I direct you to my TDIH - Winterland 10-4-70 thread from earlier today. It seems several of us older heads were taken by this raw, unadulterated show on bootleg vinyl . . . But I tend to agree with you that Europe 72 won over several newcomers and nonbelievers to the cause - something for everyone, as i used to say. Many folks in college had 'old ice cream head' as their first and/or only Dead album. If you haven't heard it in a while, pick up the remastered 2 CD digipack now reduced to midprice and often available - in the western world - for under $10. A heck of a deal.

By the way, were you ever able to listen to Paris 5-3-72 in it's entirety? If so, 5-4-72 is equally worth the effort. For years this was my overseas flight Dark Star listening. The two nights together are possibly my favorite pairing ever - desert island discs (all 7!) indeed.

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Oct 4, 2010 10:45pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Oh, definitely. And it's pretty familiar territory, actually. I lived here in the 90s. Read about JG's death in the Kathmandu Post ...

>"Guess no one would have imagined that in the 70s" -

Yeah, certainly a lot of folks appreciated and even preferred the raw stuff (tapes, of course, and yeah, I had a bootleg on vinyl, too ... late 70s, but an early 70s show ... wish I knew which one!). But I'm thinking more of the band themselves and people involved in record production. "Polished" seems to have been the goal, with the paradoxical idea that somehow, if they polished it right, it would approximate the energy of the live performances, and that this "polished" version -- either a studio album or a cleaned-up live album -- would be the long-term keeper, with the tape trading as a temporary phenomenon. When in fact, the opposite essentially turned out to be true. The tapers ended up driving the horse, as it were, and it's been the live esthetic that has predominated. I'd guess more people get into the GD now through DPs and the IA than through the albums.

Oh, and yeah, I've managed to grapple with the technology over here enough to listen to most of what I want to hear, though it's not just click-n-stream; definitely, 5/3/72 is fantastic! Will try 5/4, too. Kathmandu's ever-entertaining bumper-to-rickshaw traffic is far more bearable with a soundtrack. Though of course, Bollywood Film Hits are good for ambience, too. With multiple car horns for punctuation.

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Poster: duckpond74 Date: Oct 4, 2010 11:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Bollywood hits with car horns ... i can hear it in my mind's ear - and it sounds fantastic!

"Polished" seems to have been the goal - for Warner Brothers is how i understood it to be. Others here on the forum may have more facts and details, but the story back when it was released, as i remember it, was that Warners was the entity that wanted to 'polish' up the vocals to make it more commercially viable. The Dead agreed to oblige if they could release it as a 3 record set. It was their most commercially successful record to date, but talk was that the dead were feeling artistically compromised - once again i'm going on old talk and rumours of the day. Soon after, they left Warners and started Grateful Dead Records.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Oct 5, 2010 12:37am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

You're right that the band tried to 'polish' their live albums, feeling that they could best present themselves through lots of overdubbing... I think their desire for studio-perfect live albums skewed those albums towards the more 'polished' listener-friendly songs, leaving more interesting material unreleased.
Fortunately, fans were thrilled enough with the original 'warts & all' shows, they started taping & collecting like mad, making the 'official' albums almost irrelevant except to uninitiated Dead newcomers.

I discussed this a bit in this old essay:
http://deadessays.blogspot.com/2009/08/did-dead-like-their-live-albums.html